I want to talk a bit about my aesthetic sense, something I’ve previously touched on here (when my tone was less subdued, I guess). This isn’t meant to be definitive, and I might continue to build on it when the fancy strikes me. It’s also not exclusionary – it’s entirely possible for something to be pleasing to me without necessarily following these elements.
aesthetics
Written by:zach
I'm on board except for two points: First, I try to pretend that Glee doesn't exist, so having it pop up here is like some kind of socio-emotional ambush. =D
Second, I still think that "ludonarrative dissonance" is an obfuscating term. Its obfuscation is a function of its existence, quite apart from any intentionality; so this is not to suggest that you are using it with an agenda (i.e., to hide something that you can see but I cannot). Rather, I think its neutral use definitively hides something from both (or all) of us, inclusively.
My own personal demons aside, the core concept, agreeing(,) to build, is marvelous. It's got my gears turning re: a project I've been knocking about for a while, so many thanks for that. Particularly, the first thought this pushed me toward was that games function well when players agree with them, essentially becoming part of the "yes, and…" cycle. But I'm not sure about that, because I think some great things can happen when either the game or the player says, "No, I'm going to the amusement park." I must think more on it.
I agree 100% that it is possible to be compelling while disagreeing. However it is an advanced tactic and not recommended for beginners 😉
I also feel weird about using the term "ludonarrative dissonance"! It's a big, invented word. However, it is the hot buzzword these days, and I understand what is meant by it and use it to signpost discussions around similar topics and to drive up my SEO around the word, as oppposed to trying to invent new vocabulary 😉
glee is compelling only because it is so, so bad. it's a great learning example. however, as much as I love showtunes and high school parodies (which Glee started out as before devolving into just a high school drama), the show is srsly starting to wear on me…
here are some books that were formative to my thinking in this area:
"Impro for Storytellers" by Keith Johnston – this is the classic text.
"Truth in Comedy: The Manual for Improvisation" by various authors including the legendary Del Close.
tbh i was blocked on posting this for a long time because understanding how game mechanics can fit into this framework is… hard. there's a concept in improv about "The game of the scene" (which is… totally different) but talking it over with a buddy we agreed it's not the same as "committing" to a scene which in turn is not the same as "Agreeing" with a scene, which are all more components that I didn't fit in here… and in any case we couldn't figure out how mechanics can interact with narrative in a simple manner. which is, you know, fine. because it's a hard problem and not meant to be solved by two knuckleheads via text message.
STORYTIME: Blogger shit itself and died right after this was posted, changing the URL, the tags, and deleting comments. FORTUNATELY Blogger emails me the full text of every comment made, so I can at least save those:
David Baker:
I'm on board except for two points: First, I try to pretend that Glee doesn't exist, so having it pop up here is like some kind of socio-emotional ambush. =D
Second, I still think that "ludonarrative dissonance" is an obfuscating term. Its obfuscation is a function of its existence, quite apart from any intentionality; so this is not to suggest that you are using it with an agenda (i.e., to hide something that you can see but I cannot). Rather, I think its neutral use definitively hides something from both (or all) of us, inclusively.
My own personal demons aside, the core concept, agreeing(,) to build, is marvelous. It's got my gears turning re: a project I've been knocking about for a while, so many thanks for that. Particularly, the first thought this pushed me toward was that games function well when players agree with them, essentially becoming part of the "yes, and…" cycle. But I'm not sure about that, because I think some great things can happen when either the game or the player says, "No, I'm going to the amusement park." I must think more on it.
My reply:
I agree 100% that it is possible to be compelling while disagreeing. However it is an advanced tactic and not recommended for beginners 😉
I also feel weird about using the term "ludonarrative dissonance"! It's a big, invented word. However, it is the hot buzzword these days, and I understand what is meant by it and use it to signpost discussions around similar topics and to drive up my SEO around the word, as oppposed to trying to invent new vocabulary 😉
glee is compelling only because it is so, so bad. it's a great learning example. however, as much as I love showtunes and high school parodies (which Glee started out as before devolving into just a high school drama), the show is srsly starting to wear on me…
here are some books that were formative to my thinking in this area:
"Impro for Storytellers" by Keith Johnston – this is the classic text.
"Truth in Comedy: The Manual for Improvisation" by various authors including the legendary Del Close.
tbh i was blocked on posting this for a long time because understanding how game mechanics can fit into this framework is… hard. there's a concept in improv about "The game of the scene" (which is… totally different) but talking it over with a buddy we agreed it's not the same as "committing" to a scene which in turn is not the same as "Agreeing" with a scene, which are all more components that I didn't fit in here… and in any case we couldn't figure out how mechanics can interact with narrative in a simple manner. which is, you know, fine. because it's a hard problem and not meant to be solved by two knuckleheads via text message.
this is not a test, this is the real thing:
does this shit blow?
logged out experience
trying allthe different accounts
@icepotato YOU'RE SUCH A COCK
testing mentions of @a8b86f0fdbc169041a7686e42405225c and @icepotato and hey maybe i can bother @92aeabbd88dcf23cd12f3206d3e741a9 ????